If you look at all the fantasies MAGA have about Covid, ev’s, renewables, climate change the underlying theme for them is freedom. They’ve been convinced by propaganda from vested interests that all of these things are taking away their freedom. You will never convince them with facts so you have to appeal to values. Since the underlying value is freedom you have to demonstrate that trumps policies on just about everything will take away their freedom. Now I’m not sure it will work. It might have a few years ago but now most of them are so far down the rabbit hole that it probably won’t work but we don’t have many alternatives
Yes, if you could incorporate patriotism it would be a winning combination. Trouble is everything Trump does it seen as patriotic but there must be others on the fringe who could flip. It’s already working to some degree amongst vets
Exactly, Magat brains are like a bear trap- they clamp down on their grievances and their perceived threats to their “freedum” and won’t admit they believe in false perceptions. Also racism/misogyny is a major component of their world view so they are hopelessly ignorant that their belief system is flawed and destructive. The rapey traitor felon and his sycophants have given the bigots approval to come out in the open like cockroaches running from the exterminator.
Somehow we have to overcome our complex and reach out to MAGA voters, on the basis the Americans is one nation and always should be strong, responsible and kind. At least make sure the idea of cruelty is absolute wrong and unacceptable. Superiority glee should go away, for the people who don’t read books and utterly ignorant it is a hard task, but maybe the history lessons will help? Try to educate them another words. It worth trying. To make sure kindness is alive, remind them even Christian stories of kind deeds being rewarded. Shit, I don’t know the recipe, it is truly hard to make MAGA listen.
The politics of grievance resonates 100% here in Europe. Farage in UK, Le Pen in France , Orban in Hungary. Russia and Serbia have an ingrained victim complex fuelled by media dominated by those in power. Michael Sellers is right, ignore the middle class notion of facts and science. It’s emotion that wins most votes.
Your comments are sad, wise and true. From Canada I say, “Good luck”. And may we spare ourselves from the similar fate of a Trump-lite Prime Minister in Conservative pyjamas. All our fingers are crossed for Liberal Prime Minister Mark Carney to win the election now in progress!
I believe a common theme amongst the dictator set is that once full control over the nation is established, they will come for our guns. An armed populace is an overt threat to an autocrat. If I'm right about that (not 100% sure) then spreading that idea on Truth Social might be a powerful tool to convince some on the right just how bad Trump is for everyone.
I think so, yes. But the prospect of having your guns confiscated would, I think, greatly upset many in the MAGA crowd. It might be one way to get them to wake up from their fever dreams and start taking an honest and objective look at what's actually happening.
We have endured decades of armed mayhem, in case a dictator might show up and we would have to get rid of him...and here we are. At least some of those MAGA are ex maga now, you can't keep everyone in the tent pissing out, there will be some that escape the tent. And they have been programmed to use violence to solve their problems. One got real close, if we are to believe the news from this summer. If he goes after their guns, he only increases their urgency. We will see if he can get our of that trap he set for himself.
Your pain is the pain of the intellectual. Your otherwise normal, educated neighbors are falling victim to a craze. There is no explanation. It just happens. The whole Trump phenomenon is terrible to survive and impossible to digest intellectually. It is the continuation of the pain we bloody intellectuals felt upon the second election victory, and we better prepare ourselves for more pain. We in Hungary have been going through something similar for 15 continuous years. Orbán, with his nepotism and kleptocratic oligarchy, has remained the most popular politician until recently. His challenger, Peter Magyar, holds rallies even in small villages nationwide and reveals the truth. His audience enthusiastically chants: Enough! This morning, Polls came out, and Orbán has slept down to No 3! Unfortunately, Hungary changed its position in the region from the "jolliest Barack" to the poorest and most corrupt place, so we had to pay a high price for sobering after such a long time. The president of the National Bank, his son, and pals looted 600 hundred billion Hungarian Forints (1,5 billion USD) from the bank's assets. Healthy brains must still be prepared for a long march to reach normalcy. Being stubborn, "I do believe deep in my heart that we shall overcome someday..."
Thank you. Your comments offer a slight ray of hope to those of us who, admittedly, worship reason and believe empathy are a basis of human nature. Trump and the direction of humanity lately have caused me to believe my rose colored glasses I wore when singing along with Pete Seeger distorted reality, but you have given me some hope.
I'm looking forward to the Fall, when parents especially of young, fast growing children go to buy the new clothes, shoes, and all the other stuff needed for school. There won't be anything from China. (The revenues from 100% tariffs will be zero.) And even the needed goods that Walmart, Target, and others have managed to source from Vietnam, Bangladesh, Indonesia and the other places where businesses have been relocating their supply chains will face the 10% tarrif and possibly more. Who knows, we may see hand-me-downs become commonplace again.
There are enough resale clothing shops in this country to keep us all in clothes, for decades. Clothes are no longer a scarce commodity, we have been carpetbombed with cheap Chinese clothing for years now. We could burn clothes for fuel and stay warm for a long time. The only shortage will be new clothes. Junior will go off to school slightly shabbier but not bare-arsed this fall.
What I experienced back in my day. I’ll never forget going shopping with my aunt after she & my uncle were granted custody, and I had NO idea what I might like as I’d never been shopping for clothes before!
Maga folks died in droves during the pandemic, and their friends and relatives still engaged in denial ism and still refused the vaccine. There are people watching their children sicken, perhaps to disability or death, with measles in the US now, that still remain firmly anti logic, anti-science, because Trump confirmed their prejudices. They are gone. Not reclaimable. Don't even try. Their children will laugh at them, in some happier year.
In 2019 I opined in the comments section of WAPO that the USA was going to "free speech" itself into an autocracy. I was immediately piled onto by folks who said they'd rather die than give up their free speech rights. What I meant and what no one seemed to get; the damage being done by the growing proliferation of hate speech, lies and fascistic right wing propaganda spreading unchecked under the guise of 'free speech'. It's only gotten worse. Legacy media has now succumbed to trump and monied interests, paying their shills "large" sums of money to subvert, ignore or bury the truth about what's really going on. How are susceptible people supposed to find their way out of this ever pervasive fog.
As things get worse, there will be opportunities to shed light. As you say, independent media has a huge role to play as do activists, lawyers and local democratic politicians. They all have a duty to report the lies and offer up the facts, tirelessly.
Whoever controls the media controls the narrative.
Thank you for your earlier efforts & this post. I think one of the problems is that many people don’t even know what fascism is. I must admit that even as an educated person with 2 degrees, I had to check to be sure I was spelling it correctly & then verify the definition (my favorite search engine is Perplexity as it’s so easy to ask follow up questions). So I rather doubt that the majority of MAGA know this or understand the danger.
Great suggestions. How will it end? How could it end? Is the orange menace the root problem or is it the unholy alliance of ideologues, preachers, technobros and billionaires? If T**** loses the MAGA support will they let him carry on regardless or ditch him and go on with their own autocratic agenda? What would it take for the party to call time? If all democratic guardrails have been torn down, how can democracy be restored? And if all key institutions (including intelligence and military) are in the hands of the autocrats, who will apply the brakes? As a Brit, I'm also concerned that before long Musk et al might turn their attention to the other side of the Atlantic as he threatened to do a while ago. The one gleam of hope is that voices like yours recognize the extent of the crisis.
John, you ask, "What would it take for the party to call time". (I'm assuming you mean the GOP.) The answer has to be nothing can. The only element of continuity between what was once called the Republican Party and the current entity claiming that name are the unprincipled, opportunistic office holders such as McConnell or Rubio who have been happy to trade any principles they might once have claimed for continued tenure in office. The fundamental ideals of free people, free markets, and free nations that were the core of what for decades was called "conservative" in the U.S. have been discarded in favor of their exact opposite. What's arisen to displace it cannot in any sense be called "conservative" in the sense of conserving the founding principles of the U.S. It might be regarded as "right wing" in a "blood and soil" sort of way, that is, as racist and nationalist.
About a third of registered voters are Republicans. Forget about them, they’ll never abandon Trump. A third are registered Democrats. They’ll never support Trump. You have to focus any message on the third in the middle, and many of those lean left or right. Those who lean right could be convinced to move away from Trump because of the chaos he’s caused, including the economic turmoil he’s put them and many other Americans in. Win enough of them over and we can move on from this clown show.
Agreed. Among that last third are people who are deeply disengaged politically. There is another whole pool of people who don't even vote. All of those are the ones who will vote the bastards out if they are inflicted with pain, economic or otherwise.
Part of the problem is that Trump casts his own psychological trauma on the nation - they laughed at me therefore they are laughing at you. Many of his supporters are emotionally invested in him, in the way some people are invested in film or music stars and refuse to believe anything bad about them. He needs to be exposed for what he is in a way that he cannot blame on someone else. For example, not paying respects to those soldiers who died in Lithuania is a surefire way I would have thought to upset the military. A few more of those and he’ll be Cinc in name only.
I like strategy 1: profile those stories on Meidas and other platforms with large viewership. Legacy media won't do it. For strategy 2, I can't even wrap my mind around believing his crap about the persecution of the U.S. myth. People who buy that need professional de-programming.
I keep harkening back to the sports analogy for men. Every man & many women (generally) love to watch a good “football”, “basketball”, you fill in the blank of beloved said sport game. What the “fans” (many in red states) can count on and understand is the game rules, referees, umps, and flags or penalties for unsportsmanlike conduct. Within those parameters they can enjoy a game sometimes against a bitter rival and both leave with an understanding of a winner and a loser and who was given a penalty and why. In that same vain, we can compare our elections to this situation, people go to the polls, show their id’s and vote, one person one vote, in the end there’s declared a winner and a loser. If someone whose lost - thinks they’ve won - they can ask for a an ump (judge in this case) to look at the play (recount the votes) when the recount is over - either the winner is vindicated or the ruling is overturned (our judicial system). You have to ask how people would like it if in sports there were no umpires, or referees (judges) just the stronger team always claiming they won and shouting down the team who questions the outcome. That would in essence - not be a fair game. We have to slowly start change our analogies more towards metaphors maybe Trump followers might get. Like would you like to be the Florida Marlins who were always being told “no, we’re the NY Mets, we win because we say so!” This would work with trying to use a comparative ad to how is it different - you tolerate rules in sports - why should constitutional rules be out the window in the Trump administration 2.0? in due process arguments (judge adjudicated) free speech arguments (meaning all free speech - not limited - book banning, etc) civil rights arguments, etc….
So...what do we do? In a few respects this is still America. We are still the America of the second amendment. He has radicalized many, and normalized violence for them. If I were him, I would be very afraid of the monsters I had created.
I’m not supposed to know this but a friend of my daughter told me. Apparently, my son-in-law got very involved with the Proud Boys until my daughter threatened to leave him. I’m sure that’s why she’s trying to enforce “NO politics in the house.” Thank God for SubStack as it’s at least a place where I can express my opinion.
MAGA went for the emotional, gut feelings, for sure. Targeted psychological manipulation; marketing, in short. The sound bites needed to reach the guts of MAGA can chip away at the cult mentality but there is such a need for a global response.
I would love for the rest of the world to gather in a “Truth and Reconciliation” commission regarding the US. It could be held in Canada or maybe Greenland, for symbolic emphasis. This will take time, well into this current Administration’s term, possibly after. By then there will be many more, and amplification of, issues that are affecting the world’s stability and economies. US refugees will surely have increased by then as well as domestically incarcerated so called “enemies of the state” or “subversive social deviants” if current trends continue. The evil of torture is already showing itself in the Administration’s cruelty to immigrants, LGBTQ+, POC, the mentally ill, the addicted, the poor and indigent.
The airing of testimony about the events and outcomes of this cruelty can be on display for the world to observe. Would this invoke an emotional response? Could this affect change? We need more coalitions on this planet. Cooperation not annihilation. Competition not destruction. Friendly alliances not enemy adversaries.
If you look at all the fantasies MAGA have about Covid, ev’s, renewables, climate change the underlying theme for them is freedom. They’ve been convinced by propaganda from vested interests that all of these things are taking away their freedom. You will never convince them with facts so you have to appeal to values. Since the underlying value is freedom you have to demonstrate that trumps policies on just about everything will take away their freedom. Now I’m not sure it will work. It might have a few years ago but now most of them are so far down the rabbit hole that it probably won’t work but we don’t have many alternatives
"Former" KGB Counterintelligence officer Vladimir Putin is jumping for joy!
Freedom and patriotism. You got it.
Yes, if you could incorporate patriotism it would be a winning combination. Trouble is everything Trump does it seen as patriotic but there must be others on the fringe who could flip. It’s already working to some degree amongst vets
Exactly, Magat brains are like a bear trap- they clamp down on their grievances and their perceived threats to their “freedum” and won’t admit they believe in false perceptions. Also racism/misogyny is a major component of their world view so they are hopelessly ignorant that their belief system is flawed and destructive. The rapey traitor felon and his sycophants have given the bigots approval to come out in the open like cockroaches running from the exterminator.
Yes, as my MAGA son-in-law said during a discussion about DEI, he feels shut-out because he’s white!
Somehow we have to overcome our complex and reach out to MAGA voters, on the basis the Americans is one nation and always should be strong, responsible and kind. At least make sure the idea of cruelty is absolute wrong and unacceptable. Superiority glee should go away, for the people who don’t read books and utterly ignorant it is a hard task, but maybe the history lessons will help? Try to educate them another words. It worth trying. To make sure kindness is alive, remind them even Christian stories of kind deeds being rewarded. Shit, I don’t know the recipe, it is truly hard to make MAGA listen.
The politics of grievance resonates 100% here in Europe. Farage in UK, Le Pen in France , Orban in Hungary. Russia and Serbia have an ingrained victim complex fuelled by media dominated by those in power. Michael Sellers is right, ignore the middle class notion of facts and science. It’s emotion that wins most votes.
Your comments are sad, wise and true. From Canada I say, “Good luck”. And may we spare ourselves from the similar fate of a Trump-lite Prime Minister in Conservative pyjamas. All our fingers are crossed for Liberal Prime Minister Mark Carney to win the election now in progress!
Elbows up Canada!!
I believe a common theme amongst the dictator set is that once full control over the nation is established, they will come for our guns. An armed populace is an overt threat to an autocrat. If I'm right about that (not 100% sure) then spreading that idea on Truth Social might be a powerful tool to convince some on the right just how bad Trump is for everyone.
but wouldn't it be a good thing (in a post Trump US) if fewer people had guns? in the meantime, it might be different....
I think so, yes. But the prospect of having your guns confiscated would, I think, greatly upset many in the MAGA crowd. It might be one way to get them to wake up from their fever dreams and start taking an honest and objective look at what's actually happening.
We have endured decades of armed mayhem, in case a dictator might show up and we would have to get rid of him...and here we are. At least some of those MAGA are ex maga now, you can't keep everyone in the tent pissing out, there will be some that escape the tent. And they have been programmed to use violence to solve their problems. One got real close, if we are to believe the news from this summer. If he goes after their guns, he only increases their urgency. We will see if he can get our of that trap he set for himself.
Michael,
Your pain is the pain of the intellectual. Your otherwise normal, educated neighbors are falling victim to a craze. There is no explanation. It just happens. The whole Trump phenomenon is terrible to survive and impossible to digest intellectually. It is the continuation of the pain we bloody intellectuals felt upon the second election victory, and we better prepare ourselves for more pain. We in Hungary have been going through something similar for 15 continuous years. Orbán, with his nepotism and kleptocratic oligarchy, has remained the most popular politician until recently. His challenger, Peter Magyar, holds rallies even in small villages nationwide and reveals the truth. His audience enthusiastically chants: Enough! This morning, Polls came out, and Orbán has slept down to No 3! Unfortunately, Hungary changed its position in the region from the "jolliest Barack" to the poorest and most corrupt place, so we had to pay a high price for sobering after such a long time. The president of the National Bank, his son, and pals looted 600 hundred billion Hungarian Forints (1,5 billion USD) from the bank's assets. Healthy brains must still be prepared for a long march to reach normalcy. Being stubborn, "I do believe deep in my heart that we shall overcome someday..."
Thank you. Your comments offer a slight ray of hope to those of us who, admittedly, worship reason and believe empathy are a basis of human nature. Trump and the direction of humanity lately have caused me to believe my rose colored glasses I wore when singing along with Pete Seeger distorted reality, but you have given me some hope.
Maybe more than a slight hope, but after a long, shivering night
We have to keep praying that evil can be overcome.
Praying is important, but it’s essential to unite and fight against malevolent forces as well!
I'm looking forward to the Fall, when parents especially of young, fast growing children go to buy the new clothes, shoes, and all the other stuff needed for school. There won't be anything from China. (The revenues from 100% tariffs will be zero.) And even the needed goods that Walmart, Target, and others have managed to source from Vietnam, Bangladesh, Indonesia and the other places where businesses have been relocating their supply chains will face the 10% tarrif and possibly more. Who knows, we may see hand-me-downs become commonplace again.
There are enough resale clothing shops in this country to keep us all in clothes, for decades. Clothes are no longer a scarce commodity, we have been carpetbombed with cheap Chinese clothing for years now. We could burn clothes for fuel and stay warm for a long time. The only shortage will be new clothes. Junior will go off to school slightly shabbier but not bare-arsed this fall.
What I experienced back in my day. I’ll never forget going shopping with my aunt after she & my uncle were granted custody, and I had NO idea what I might like as I’d never been shopping for clothes before!
This was when I was 16!
Unless MAGA feels the pain of what trump enforces, I don’t believe you’ll be able to reach them.
Yes, I thought a recession would do it as both my daughter & son-in-law voted according to their pocketbooks. Now I wonder . . .
Maga folks died in droves during the pandemic, and their friends and relatives still engaged in denial ism and still refused the vaccine. There are people watching their children sicken, perhaps to disability or death, with measles in the US now, that still remain firmly anti logic, anti-science, because Trump confirmed their prejudices. They are gone. Not reclaimable. Don't even try. Their children will laugh at them, in some happier year.
In 2019 I opined in the comments section of WAPO that the USA was going to "free speech" itself into an autocracy. I was immediately piled onto by folks who said they'd rather die than give up their free speech rights. What I meant and what no one seemed to get; the damage being done by the growing proliferation of hate speech, lies and fascistic right wing propaganda spreading unchecked under the guise of 'free speech'. It's only gotten worse. Legacy media has now succumbed to trump and monied interests, paying their shills "large" sums of money to subvert, ignore or bury the truth about what's really going on. How are susceptible people supposed to find their way out of this ever pervasive fog.
As things get worse, there will be opportunities to shed light. As you say, independent media has a huge role to play as do activists, lawyers and local democratic politicians. They all have a duty to report the lies and offer up the facts, tirelessly.
Whoever controls the media controls the narrative.
Thank you for your earlier efforts & this post. I think one of the problems is that many people don’t even know what fascism is. I must admit that even as an educated person with 2 degrees, I had to check to be sure I was spelling it correctly & then verify the definition (my favorite search engine is Perplexity as it’s so easy to ask follow up questions). So I rather doubt that the majority of MAGA know this or understand the danger.
Great suggestions. How will it end? How could it end? Is the orange menace the root problem or is it the unholy alliance of ideologues, preachers, technobros and billionaires? If T**** loses the MAGA support will they let him carry on regardless or ditch him and go on with their own autocratic agenda? What would it take for the party to call time? If all democratic guardrails have been torn down, how can democracy be restored? And if all key institutions (including intelligence and military) are in the hands of the autocrats, who will apply the brakes? As a Brit, I'm also concerned that before long Musk et al might turn their attention to the other side of the Atlantic as he threatened to do a while ago. The one gleam of hope is that voices like yours recognize the extent of the crisis.
John, you ask, "What would it take for the party to call time". (I'm assuming you mean the GOP.) The answer has to be nothing can. The only element of continuity between what was once called the Republican Party and the current entity claiming that name are the unprincipled, opportunistic office holders such as McConnell or Rubio who have been happy to trade any principles they might once have claimed for continued tenure in office. The fundamental ideals of free people, free markets, and free nations that were the core of what for decades was called "conservative" in the U.S. have been discarded in favor of their exact opposite. What's arisen to displace it cannot in any sense be called "conservative" in the sense of conserving the founding principles of the U.S. It might be regarded as "right wing" in a "blood and soil" sort of way, that is, as racist and nationalist.
About a third of registered voters are Republicans. Forget about them, they’ll never abandon Trump. A third are registered Democrats. They’ll never support Trump. You have to focus any message on the third in the middle, and many of those lean left or right. Those who lean right could be convinced to move away from Trump because of the chaos he’s caused, including the economic turmoil he’s put them and many other Americans in. Win enough of them over and we can move on from this clown show.
Agreed. Among that last third are people who are deeply disengaged politically. There is another whole pool of people who don't even vote. All of those are the ones who will vote the bastards out if they are inflicted with pain, economic or otherwise.
Part of the problem is that Trump casts his own psychological trauma on the nation - they laughed at me therefore they are laughing at you. Many of his supporters are emotionally invested in him, in the way some people are invested in film or music stars and refuse to believe anything bad about them. He needs to be exposed for what he is in a way that he cannot blame on someone else. For example, not paying respects to those soldiers who died in Lithuania is a surefire way I would have thought to upset the military. A few more of those and he’ll be Cinc in name only.
I like strategy 1: profile those stories on Meidas and other platforms with large viewership. Legacy media won't do it. For strategy 2, I can't even wrap my mind around believing his crap about the persecution of the U.S. myth. People who buy that need professional de-programming.
I keep harkening back to the sports analogy for men. Every man & many women (generally) love to watch a good “football”, “basketball”, you fill in the blank of beloved said sport game. What the “fans” (many in red states) can count on and understand is the game rules, referees, umps, and flags or penalties for unsportsmanlike conduct. Within those parameters they can enjoy a game sometimes against a bitter rival and both leave with an understanding of a winner and a loser and who was given a penalty and why. In that same vain, we can compare our elections to this situation, people go to the polls, show their id’s and vote, one person one vote, in the end there’s declared a winner and a loser. If someone whose lost - thinks they’ve won - they can ask for a an ump (judge in this case) to look at the play (recount the votes) when the recount is over - either the winner is vindicated or the ruling is overturned (our judicial system). You have to ask how people would like it if in sports there were no umpires, or referees (judges) just the stronger team always claiming they won and shouting down the team who questions the outcome. That would in essence - not be a fair game. We have to slowly start change our analogies more towards metaphors maybe Trump followers might get. Like would you like to be the Florida Marlins who were always being told “no, we’re the NY Mets, we win because we say so!” This would work with trying to use a comparative ad to how is it different - you tolerate rules in sports - why should constitutional rules be out the window in the Trump administration 2.0? in due process arguments (judge adjudicated) free speech arguments (meaning all free speech - not limited - book banning, etc) civil rights arguments, etc….
So...what do we do? In a few respects this is still America. We are still the America of the second amendment. He has radicalized many, and normalized violence for them. If I were him, I would be very afraid of the monsters I had created.
I’m not supposed to know this but a friend of my daughter told me. Apparently, my son-in-law got very involved with the Proud Boys until my daughter threatened to leave him. I’m sure that’s why she’s trying to enforce “NO politics in the house.” Thank God for SubStack as it’s at least a place where I can express my opinion.
MAGA went for the emotional, gut feelings, for sure. Targeted psychological manipulation; marketing, in short. The sound bites needed to reach the guts of MAGA can chip away at the cult mentality but there is such a need for a global response.
I would love for the rest of the world to gather in a “Truth and Reconciliation” commission regarding the US. It could be held in Canada or maybe Greenland, for symbolic emphasis. This will take time, well into this current Administration’s term, possibly after. By then there will be many more, and amplification of, issues that are affecting the world’s stability and economies. US refugees will surely have increased by then as well as domestically incarcerated so called “enemies of the state” or “subversive social deviants” if current trends continue. The evil of torture is already showing itself in the Administration’s cruelty to immigrants, LGBTQ+, POC, the mentally ill, the addicted, the poor and indigent.
The airing of testimony about the events and outcomes of this cruelty can be on display for the world to observe. Would this invoke an emotional response? Could this affect change? We need more coalitions on this planet. Cooperation not annihilation. Competition not destruction. Friendly alliances not enemy adversaries.
I like the “symbolic emphasis “!!